Saturday 24 August 2013

Millionaire Pastor wolf in sheep's clothing

Millionaire Pastor I.V. Hilliard Asks Church For “$52 Favor Seed” To Upgrade Helicopter

New Light Christian Church I.V. Hilliard Prosperity Pimp Word of Faith Apostasy
Bishop Hilliard, center, claims God told him it was time to upgrade his helicopter.
Prosperity Gospel preacher and false prophet I.V. Hilliard of New Light Christian Center Church in Houston, Texas, has come under fire for sending a letter requesting a special “favor seed” of $52 from church members in order to upgrade the church’s helicopter. Claiming he received a direct message from God regarding the situation, Hilliard’s letter, which promises all who “sow a seed” that they will automatically receive a “transportation blessing” in their own lives, is a stark example of the many heresies and false doctrines in the Prosperity Gospel movement that has corrupted much of the Christian church today. Hilliard and his wife, who live an extreme, lavish lifestyle comparable to multimillionaire rock stars, are a part of the apostasy – the prophesied falling away of much of the Christian church from Biblical doctrine to false preaching, in preparation for the coming Antichrist.
Bishop I.V. Hilliard and his wife “First Lady” and co-pastor Bridget Hilliard, lead New Light Christian Center, a church with 6 campuses and over 28,000 members. Its main building holds over 8,000 and was purchased from mega church pastor Joel Osteen (Osteen’s church had outgrown the building and he went on to purchase a professional basketball stadium to hold his services in). Hilliard’s mega-church also has a TV broadcast and was listed as one of the The 50 Most Influential Churches in America.
Here is some of the text from the letter from Pastor Hilliard (the full letter is below):
“Do you need better transportation? Does your car need repair or total replacement? Do you have a dream vehicle or luxury automobile you long to purchase? Are you trying to sale [sp] a car, truck or SUV? If you answered ‘yes’ to any of these please carefully read the rest of this letter. It could change your life….
In is one of the most powerful game changing principles in Scripture and I’ll be preaching on it real, real soon. I have used this specific Scriptural principle for specific favor over and over to see desired pursuits shift in my favor. It’s about sowing into a particular Kingdom situation to impact a similar need in your personal life.

We have an urgent transportation need that The Lord said can be an opportunity for you to see His favor and His wisdom released to help you. Scripture teaches that when you give to a Kingdom need God will raise up someone to use their power, their ability and their influence to help you. Read…2 Cor9:7-8…Mark10:27-30…
Our Aviation Department has an opportunity that will save the ministry well over $50K if we will move on it right away. My Aviation Manager stated that while repairing our helicopter they discovered that if we upgrade our blades today, it will save thousands in the years to come. As I pondered and looked at the situation, I heard that still small voice of the Holy Spirit say tell your special partners who have special transportation needs and their obedience will release favor for their needs and desires..”

The letter goes on to request a “$52 transportation favor seed” to be given to the church with the promise that within “52 days or 52 weeks” each donor will receive the “transportation breakthrough” they have been waiting for. This shameless begging for money based on twisted use of Bible Scripture is a basic and routine part of the Prosperity Gospel, also known as the Word of Faith Movement, Health and Wealth or “name it and claim it” doctrine. The basic premise of this false teaching is that Christians, by virtue of being believers in Jesus Christ are entitled to massive amounts of wealth, fame, beauty and worldly influence and just need to perform the proper actions to unlock and release these earthly blessings. Normally the “release” is achieved by “sowing a seed of faith” – which is sending money to the pastor, and then “claiming their breakthrough” which is the belief that by uttering the proper words, God will then be “activated” to send a blessing to the donor. But is this what the Bible teaches? Is this a true Christian doctrine? A brief study of Scripture will show the answer is emphatically, NO.
New Light Christian Church I.V. Hilliard Prosperity Pimp Word of Faith Apostasy

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. – Matthew 6:19-21.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, made it clear time and time again that a Christian’s focus should not be on material gain. He taught the exact opposite, specifically commanding against the storing up of “treasures upon earth” which a person loses once they die, and instead commanded His believers to focus on “treasures in heaven” - the blessings one receives when they put their faith in Him for salvation. The ultimate blessing a Christian is 100% guaranteed to receive is forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Heaven. It is through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross that a person can go from a condemned sinner, to a forgiven child of God. And the Christian life is one of giving up the lusts and pleasures of the world, in order to live a life that is holy and in accordance with Bible Scripture.
With respect to the sacrifices that a Christian must make Jesus said: “..If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” (Matthew 16:24). The essence of the Christian life is the denial of one’s own personal wants, dreams and agenda in order to let Jesus Christ and God’s Word direct their lives. This is the exact opposite of the Prosperity Gospel which puts all of the emphasis on satisfying whatever material or financial desires a person has. Rather than denying oneself, the Prosperity Gospel teaches that the entire world and all its material wealth are a Christian’s entitlement. And it just takes enough “faith seeds” and magical words in order to bring it into your bank account. Instead of putting the focus on eternal life, as the Bible does, the Word of Faith doctrine emphasizes living for today, living “your best life now” and worldly success.
Jesus Christ said: “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Matthew 16:25-26).
Because of the sin of humanity, this present world is cursed with death, pain and suffering. The true reward lies in eternity. So the person who clings to this world and puts all their focus on this life, ignoring the need for forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ, will end up losing everything, because along with losing their valued material possessions, they will also die guilty in their sin and suffer eternal damnation. But those who “lose their lives” – in other words, those who are willing to foresake the sinful lusts of today and put faith in Jesus Christ first and foremost in their hearts and minds will “find life” because they will have eternal life and blessings that will never leave. Jesus repeatedly preached against covetousness and emphasis on material gain. But this has not stopped the Prosperity Gospel pastors from making it their tool to lure unsuspecting church goers into false doctrine.
Beware Of False Prophets
New Light Christian Church | I.V. Hilliard Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Apostasy
“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.” – Matthew 24:11.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. – 2 Peter 2:1-3.
The Bible contains many warnings about false prophets – preachers who claim to preach Christianity but in fact, preach heresies. Christians are to be wary of any pastor whose teachings do not align with Scripture. In the case of Hilliard, the Biblical errors abound. Already the focus on material gain has been exposed as error but in the few Scriptures he cites, there is more heresy.
In his letter pleading for money, Hilliard wrote:
“Scripture teaches that when you give to a Kingdom need God will raise up someone to use their power, their ability and their influence to help you. Read…2 Cor9:7-8…Mark10:27-30…”
One sign of a false teacher is taking Scriptures from the middle of a chapter in the Bible and throwing them out at the audience with no real explanation of the context in which the verses are written. This is a very powerful way to give a deceptive message. The Bible contains many statements which when taken out of context, can be used to preach all manner of doctrines that were never intended. A pastor’s job is to explain the proper meaning of The Word of God so that the congregation can be edified. Hilliard in this letter cites 2 Corinthians 9:7-8 and Mark 10:27-30. Notice he does not even bother to list the actual passages or explain their meaning. He spends more time discussing his Aviation Department than actually explaining God’s Word. But here are the passages in question:
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: – 2 Corinthians 9:7-8.
To fully understand the context of this passage it is necessary to start in 2 Corinthians 8. At that time, there was a prophesied famine in Judea and the Christian church in Jerusalem was struggling to literally survive in a city with no food, heavy taxation and overpopulation. The Apostle Paul had led an effort to do a collection to help this church.  The church in Corinth to whom the book of 2 Corinthians was written, was one of the first regional churches to volunteer to set up a collection to help their poor, starving brethren in Jerusalem. This we see in 1 Corinthians 16:
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. – 1 Corinthians 16:1-3.
By the time of the writing of 2 Corinthians something had gone awry. The Church in Corinth, which had an abundance of goods and material wealth, was no longer collecting for the Jerusalem relief fund. So in Chapters 8 and 9, Paul is trying to remind them of the blessings that come from taking care of the poorest among us. Chapter 8 begins with Paul telling the church in Corinth about the Christian Church in Macedonia, who though going difficult times themselves, still gave to support their starving fellow believers in Jerusalem:
Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. – 2 Corinthians 8:1-4.
What follows in Chapters 8 and 9 are an exhortation to support the poor and give liberally – a message the Bible gives all throughout Scripture (for more on this see our article “Should Christians Give To The Poor?”). In Chapter 9 Paul reminds the Corinthian church of the verbal commitment they made to take a collection and that he had been boasting of their generosity to other believers:
For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting. Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness. – 2 Corinthians 9:1-5.
This is the context of the verses which Hilliard plucked out to support his helicopter fund.

New Light Christian Church | I.V. Hilliard Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Apostasy
Hilliard has built his ministry around the love of money and financial gain.
Note the differences in his use of the Scripture compared to what the Bible is actually conveying. The collection for Jerusalem was to help the poor. It was going to those who were literally starving. It was not a collection to help pay for one of Paul’s luxury items. Furthermore the emphasis on giving was to be done with a cheerful heart and “not as of covetousness.” Christians are to give to the poor with no thought of return. Hilliard’s entire approach is based on provoking desire in his congregation with lines like ” Do you need better transportation? Does your car need repair or total replacement? Do you have a dream vehicle or luxury automobile you long to purchase?”  The appeal in his pitch is that by giving the money to him and his Aviation Department, God is going to provide an even bigger payoff in the form of a luxury car or SUV within 52 days or weeks.
The Scripture he cites does say that God will bless believers materially, but not with luxury items. Jesus clarifies the material blessings of God in Matthew 6:
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. — Matthew 6:25-34.
Having food, clothing and the basic necessities is something that a Christian can call on God to provide. But how do we receive them? Is it by “sowing a seed” of money? Is it by “claiming a breakthrough” with our words? Is it by occult ritual? No. It is done by “seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.” The righteousness of God is attained by faith in Jesus Christ. It is only through faith in Jesus Christ that a sinner can be redeemed and declared righteous before God. So the blessings a Christian receives, in this life and in Heaven are through Jesus Christ. It is not the result of our own actions. It was all earned by Christ. This is why Jesus taught that Christians were not to spend time worrying or “dreaming” about their earthly needs. He has won them for all who believe in Him. But this is something Prosperity Gospel false teachers cannot teach because it removes their ability to manipulate their congregations by coercing them into giving money thinking they can “buy” God’s favor. Do not be deceived.

The second passage Hilliard cites does not need much explanation:
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. – Mark 10:27-30.
The meaning of this passage is not that Jesus was promising “100 houses” to any person who would become His disciple. He was comparing the joy of those who forsook their earthly life to follow Him and receive salvation as being one hundred time better than the joy friends, property, wealth, family and a big home can bring. Even “with persecutions”, the Christian life is still infinitely better than the life of a wealthy unbeliever who is lost in sinful rebellion with the wrath of God hanging over her head each day.  Hilliard shamefully tries to use this passage to support the “deal” he is pitching – that giving money to him will lead to a much bigger financial return from God.
Prosperity Gospel Pastors – Lifestyles of The Rich And Famous
New Light Christian Church | Helicopter Seed Money Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Apostasy
Bishop Hilliard’s Mansion: “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”1 Timothy 6:10.

Lord willing it is clear that Hilliard is not teaching Biblical Christianity. Instead he is doing just what the Apostle Peter’s warning states in 2 Peter 2: “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:” By promoting covetousness in his congregation (“do you want a new car?“) Hilliard used Bible twisting tactics to make merchandise of his congregation – all to fund his helicopter upgrade. Peter continues in his warnings of false teachers by describing their motivations: “Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness..” (2 Peter 2:14-15).
Balaam was a prophet in the Old Testament who charged a fee to perform divination and was offered money to falsely prophesy a curse on the children of Israel. In this same way, these false teachers today are willing to preach a false gospel and “damnable heresies” for one main purpose – money. 2 Peter again comments on the flamboyant, lavish lifestyle of false preachers: “And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you..” As this passage accurately prophesied, the false teachers of today have no shame in bragging about their immense wealth and flaunting it to their congregations.
As we have chronicled with other Word of Faith pastors, Hilliard lives in the lap of luxury. In addition to his helicopter, Hilliard lives in a sprawling 24,000 square foot mansion surrounded by five 2,200 square foot guest houses and a 3,500 square foot, 3-bedroom, “exercise room.” In total, the compound has 30 bedrooms and 36 bathrooms. In addition the multimillionaire pastor travels in a private jet.
New Light Christian Center | I.V. Hilliard Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Apostasy
The Grumman G-2 private jet owned by New Light Christian Center.

Here is a tweet from his wife and co-pastor, First Lady Bridget Hilliard, posted on Mother’s Day 2011:
New Light Christian Church | Bridget Hilliard Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Thieves
“Pastor” Bridget Hilliard tweeted a photo of her new Rolls Royce Phantom.
Here she brags about the Rolls Royce Phantom luxury vehicle her husband bought for her. This is an automobile whose cost starts at $398,000. While many of the members of their congregations struggle to pay rent and buy food, the pastor and his “co-pastor” wife live the lives of rock stars, “sporting” or showing off right in front of their followers.

New Light Christian Church | Helicopter Seed Money Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Apostasy
First Lady Bridget Hilliard’s Birthday extravaganza was clearly a financial success.
First Lady Bridget Hilliard has also been the recipient of annual, over the top birthday extravaganzas. Her birthday parties cost $100 per person to attend and the invitation comes with a “gift idea” list for attendees to know exactly what to purchase for the First Lady. Even Houston’s main newspaper, The Chronicle, reported on the ridiculous list of preferred gifts which included:

  • Monetary gifts,
  • Designer handbags: Gucci, Chanel, Louis Vuitton.
  • Gift certificates: Neiman Marcus, Saks Fifth Avenue, Escada. (source).

New Light Christian Center | Helicopter Seed Money Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith Apostasy
The ballroom for the birthday extravaganza.

In the invitation, church members were also warned:
(Don’t be afraid to give cash, that’s why we put it at the top of the list and if you’re giving a designer handbag, no knock-offs. Pastor Bridget deserves genuine Gucci. We’ll be checking for authenticity and we wouldn’t want to embarrass you in front of all the other church members).

If for some reason you are unable to attend you are welcome to mail your gift to:
Dr. (honorary) Bridget E. Hilliard
—-address removed—-
P.O. Box 306
Spring, Texas 77373
Her birthday is March 12th which is a Sunday so be sure to get your gift in the mail in plenty of time for it to arrive by Saturday March 11th.

We look forward to seeing you (or your gift) at the event!   [Emphasis added].
Pastor Hilliard also runs an organization called the Association of Independent Ministries in which other pastors join for the chance to have Hilliard serve as a “father” to them. There is a $50 application fee and $100 annual membership fee for this honor. It is reported that over 1,200 pastors are members. To be a special “son or daughter/protégé” of Hilliard requires a pledge to “serve the church physically/financially” in addition to tithes (which of course are required).
A Hilliard follower can also be a member of the Pastor’s “Wisdom Connection” which provides special VIP access to the pastor’s sermon notes, notes from classes Hilliard teaches and audio and video of sermons. All this can be yours for $200 per month. Why is a pastor and supposed man of God, charging for his sermons? Well to support the many mansions and luxury vehicles they own. Beloved, this is not Christianity. This the satanic corruption of the Christian church that the Bible prophesied. Rather than preach the Biblical Gospel of repentance and forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ, Hilliard teaches a false gospel premised on money, self-elevation and lust for the world. And this false gospel is leading people way from the God of the Bible and to a false religion that leads to hell.
And it is with this fabulous, decadent lifestyle that mega church pastors like the Hilliards dazzle their followers. Rather than put the focus on Jesus Christ, they show off their own glory, to both intimidate and provoke envy among their devoted church attendees. The idea is that since they have so much wealth, they must be “anointed” by God and have special divine revelation. This gives the wolves in sheep clothing the ultimate trump card – since they are “chosen prophets of God”, they should never be questioned. In this Fox News report on the helicopter controversy, notice that New Light church attendees are so frightened to question their pastor, they will not even appear on camera without having their images and voices altered.

To no surprise, Hilliard is a featured preacher at the 2013 Mega-Fest Conference in Dallas, Texas alongside major heretics T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar – all preachers of the prosperity gospel who Beginning and End has previously done articles on. These false teachers similarly abuse and twist the Word of God to build their multi-million dollar empires.
Seek Ye First The Kingdom of God and His Righteousness
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. – Psalm 84:11.
The truth of the Scripture, no matter what false prophets claim, is that no person can “walk uprightly” or be “righteous” without faith in Jesus Christ. Through faith, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to a born again Christian, providing forgiveness of sins. This is what the Bible is about. This is the great blessing of Scripture – eternal life. Pray for repentance or judgment to come upon I.V. Hilliard, his First Lady and the rest of their corrupt ministry. And pray for the deceived congregation of this mega-church to learn the Biblical Gospel and start following and learning the Scriptures in spirit and truth. Despite losing their money, many people are also risking their eternal destiny as they spend their time and wealth on a false gospel, worshiping a false God and relying on a false spirit. By God’s grace, perhaps some will flee from false teachings and worldly lust and seek true, eternal wealth in Jesus Christ.

Thursday 15 August 2013

First resurrections types and shadows confirms pre tribulation

Types in the Bible How they Correspond to teaching By Don Mills edited By Victor.s --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Types in the Bible are a Shadow of (GOOD things to come), and not the very image of the thing, Heb 10:1. What do these Types reveal about Christ's Bride? There are now some Christians who don't believe that the Church is the Bride of Christ as strange as that sounds. There are those who don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture even though it is the most widely held view among Evangelicals. These people are left with no explanation for the types in the Bible that clearly reveal a Pre-Trib Rapture for the Bride of Christ! These people can not explain why some types in the Bible only add to a Pre Trib view, and sadly, many of them don't seem to care what the scripture reveals. Their minds are made up and don't confuse them with anything from the Word.

They are left trying to explain away how Joseph married, Asenath a gentile bride (before the seven years of famine) and how it means nothing! Looking at the life of Joseph, a Type of Christ in the Old Testament we see too many comparisons in his life and his Marriage to ignore. The life of Isaac and his Marriage to Rebekah is another revealing type that only shows a Pre Trib position not Tribulation for his Bride. Joseph A Type Of Christ Joseph was a Shepherd as is Christ, Gen 37:2 John 10-11 Joseph was 30 years old when he began his Ministry as was Christ, Gen 41:46, Luke 3:23 Joseph was “beloved” of his father as was Jesus Joseph was sent unto his brethren, so was Jesus Joseph's brethren refused to receive him, so did the brethren of Jesus Joseph was sold by his brethren, so was Jesus, Gen 37:27-28, Matt 26:15 Joseph was unjustly accused and condemned, Gen 39:13-14, as was Jesus Joseph and Jesus were silent before their accusers, Gen 39:20,

Mark 15:4 Joseph was buried in prison, so was Jesus in the Tomb of Joseph Joseph was resurrected from prison and exalted to sit with Pharoah on his throne, so Jesus was resurrected and exalted to sit on His Father's Throne. Joseph on the throne became the dispenser of bread to starving Egypt, so Jesus on His Father's Throne is the “Bread of Life” for a perishing world. Gen 41:57 Joseph knew his brethren the first time, but they did not know him, so Jesus knew His brethren when He came the first time but they knew him not. Gen 42:7-8 Joseph made himself known to his brethren when they came the “Second time”, so Jesus will be recognized by the Jews when He comes the Second Time.

 Gen 45:3-4 After Joseph's revelation of himself to his brethren, they proclaim that he hast saved their lives, Gen 47:25. So when Jesus reveals Himself to His brethren the Jews they will proclaim Him alive and the Saviour Of Mankind. Joseph then establishes his brethren and their families in the “land of Goshen”, Gen 45:10, so Jesus will re-establish the Jews in the Land Of Palestine. The life of Joseph clearly parallels the Life of Christ. Now, when we get to looking at (the marriage of Joseph) all these types are a shadow of GOOD things to come and they add weight to the argument for a Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Bride of Christ.

 To argue against this is to do damage to the beauty and harmony of what the scripture is revealing. After Joseph was exalted he got, Asenath, a Gentile Bride, so Jesus will get a Gentile Bride after his resurrection-- The Church. AFTER Joseph got his (gentile bride) his brethren (then) suffered a SEVEN YEAR FAMINE and they came to him for corn, so AFTER Jesus gets His Bride, His brethren, the Jews, will turn to him, during the time of “Jacobs Trouble”, “Daniel's 70th week”, the “Tribulation”, for relief.

The famine in Egypt is a picture of (The World), so the type shows a 7 year period of tribulation on the known world Egypt. This shows a clear Type of Gentile Bride for Joseph and how he gets his Bride BEFORE the Tribulation on the known WORLD just as Christ will get his Bride before the Tribulation on the World. It becomes very hard to argue with the flow and harmony of scripture when we look at the types throughout the Bible that only add clear insight for a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church, which is the Bride of Christ. It is evident that there are many different TYPES throughout scripture that help us as believers to know the TRUE meaning of GOOD things to come. We will see these meanings revealed if we don't ignore or disregard what scripture is plainly saying. Abraham is a type of God Sarah is a type of Israel Isaac is a type of Jesus Eliezer is a type of the Holy Spirit Rebekah is a type of the Church Keturah a type of Israel Restored There will be those who still (resist the obvious) about the types in the Bible which are the GOOD things to come. It seems that some people would rather hope for bad things but the Bible clearly reveals a Pre-Tribulation Rapture for the Church or (Bride of Christ). Let's see if we can find another plain and obvious type in scripture. Abraham is a type of God Isaac is a Type of Christ Both Isaac and Christ were Children of Promise, Gen 15:4 Isa 7:14 The birth of both were Pre-Announced Gen 18:10 Luke 1:30-31 Both were named Before their birth, Isaac- Gen 17:19 Jesus- 1:31 Both had a miracle birth Sarah was Barren Mary was a virgin Both Isaac and Christ called only Son, Gen 22:2 Heb 11:17 and John 3:16

Both Isaac and Christ were mocked and persecuted by their own Kindred. Gen 21:9-10 Gal 4:28-29 Matt 27:29 Neither Isaac or Christ had Broken the Law that they should be executed for. Gen 22:2 Matt 27:24 Isaac carried the wood on which he was to die like Christ carried his Own Cross. Gen 22:6 John 19:17 Isaac went willingly to the alter, so Christ went willingly to the Cross. Gen 22:9 John 10:17 Isaac taken to Mt Moriah or Calvary, to be offered Gen 22:1-2 where Christ died Both apparently given up or Forsaken by His Father. Gen 22:2 Matt 27:46 In both cases God intervened! So if Isaac's Life so closely parallels that of Christ then why wouldn't his marriage to Rebekah parallel the marriage of Christ to his Bride? There will be those who still try and act like none of this means anything concerning the Rapture of the Church, but at some point we must stop fighting against what scripture is plainly revealing through teaching and in Type.

What was the role that Eliezer played and what does that reveal about Christ and His bride? Eliezer A Type Of The Holy Spirit As Eliezer was a servant of Abraham, so the Holy Spirit is a Servant of God. Gen 15:1-2 As Eliezer's mission was to go to Haran and get a bride for Isaac, so the Holy Spirit has been sent from Heaven to get a Bride For Christ. As Eliezer was not sent to get a bride for Isaac until AFTER he was typically offered up, so the Holy Spirit was Not sent to get a Bride for Christ until AFTER His Death and Resurrection. As Eliezer did not talk about himself, but his Master's son, so the Holy Spirit does not talk about Himself, But About Christ. As Eliezer was urgent, so the Holy Spirit is Urgent. Gen 24:53-56 2Cor 6:2 As Eliezer by the precious gifts he gave Rebekah revealed the wealth of his Master Isaac, so the Holy Spirit by his Gifts gives us a foretaste of what is in store for the Bride of Christ, the Church. When Eliezer got Rebekah's consent to be the Bride of Isaac, He Himself took her back; he did not send her back while he remained with her kinsfolk. So when the Bride, the Church, is ready the Holy Spirit will go back to heaven with her. Rev 4:5 Rebekah a clear type of the Bride Of Christ. As Rebekah was a Virgin so the Church will be presented as Espoused Virgin to Christ. Gen 24:16, 2Cor 11:2.

  As Rebekah believed and yielded to the pleadings of Eliezer, so the Church believes and yields to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit. As Rebekah was willing to separate herself from her kinsfolk for Isaac's sake, so the Believer is willing to separate himself from his kinsfolk for Jesus Sake. Gen 24:57-58. Her family proclaimed unto Rebekah, “be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate thee” Gen 24:60. As the Church will bring thousands of millions of believers to Christ..... As Eliezer on the way to Isaac told Rebekah all about his Master Isaac, and what was in store for her, so the Holy Spirit as we journey on our earthly pilgrimage tells us what is in store for us when we shall meet our Isaac----Jesus. As Rebekah was a Gentile bride, so the Church of Christ is a Gentile Bride. As Rebekah did NOT have to pass through ANY tribulation before she left her home to go to Isaac, so the Church will NOT have to pass through the Tribulation before meeting Jesus. Rev 4:1. As Isaac left his home and went out into the field to meet Rebekah, so Jesus himself will Descend from heaven to meet His Bride, the Church in the air. Gen 24:63, 1Thess 4:16-18 As it was “eventide” when Isaac met Rebekah, so it will be the (Eventide of this Dispensation of Grace) when Jesus meets His Bride, the Church. Gen 24:63. As Isaac (came from the well of La-hai-roi) Gen 24:62, which means the PRESENCE of HIM that Liveth and Seeth! So Christ will leave his Fathers Presence who Liveth and Seeth, to go out and meditate in the field and meet his Bride! Gen 24:62-63, John 17:20-24. Again this shows that there will be no Tribulation for Christ's Bride, it just isn't revealed.

 Quite the contrary it only shows how the Church at the end of this Dispensation of Grace, will be met by the Lord Himself in the clouds. It's a love story with a GOOD ending and these types in the Bible are a shadow of GOOD things to come. Not even a hint of any part of the 7 year tribulation. This again adds to the type with Joseph taking his Gentile Bride BEFORE the 7 YEAR Famine and then Rebekah not going through ANY tribulation before she is taken. Those who believe in a Mid Trib or Post Trib have to go out of their way to discredit these types because they do extreme damage to both of those ideas. Enoch died and was removed in death before the Flood, and the flood is a (type) of the Tribulation, and Noah and his family are the “Jewish Remnant” or 144,000 sealed ones of Rev 7:1-8 who will be preserved through the Tribulation. Even MOSES is a type of Christ, got his Bride, and she was a Gentile, “after” his rejection by his brethren, and “before” they passed through the Tribulation under Pharoah. Ex 2:23-25 It is the failure to understand the lofty place the Lord has reserved for His Bride and that is why some people can not grasp the true position of the Bride. The Church will rule as consorts in His Kingdom and we will co-share in His reign, John 14:20. Remember in the final standing we are not servants or subjects. The Bride (always) Reigns with the Bridegroom, she is not a subject in the Kingdom. John 17:21-22 The Bride is never invited to her own wedding.

A Bride is there at her wedding by her standing in that she is marrying the Bridegroom! She will not be a subject in the Kingdom, she will rule and reign with Christ! Like Isaac's Gentile Bride Rebekah was met by Isaac in the evening, so will the Lord meet his Bride, the Church, in the Evening of, the Day of Grace and right before the Day of The Lord starts. To the world it will be like, a Thief in the night! This EVENT will usher in The Day of The Lord! The Lord will take his Bride before the 7 year Tribulation just as Joseph took his Bride before the 7 year Famine!

Moses was a type of the Church, (The Lord comes to Moses in a Cloud) with the voice of a TRUMPET and then the people would COME UP to the mount Sinai Ex 19:13,16 just like the Church, when it hears the TRUMPET and is CAUGHT UP in the Clouds to meet the Lord, Ex 19:9,13,16, Ex 20:18, 1Cor 15:51-53, 1Thess 4:16-18 . Moses and the children of Israel would hear the TRUMPET and GO UP to Mt Sanai as the Lord descended in the cloud. Hebrews 12:18-23 connects this thought together with how Israel heard the TRUMPET and went up to Mt Sanai, but, Israel could not endure that which was commanded at Mt Sanai, but .......The Church hears the TRUMPET and are Come unto Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. So, the Trumpet sounding and the Going Up to Mt Sanai are similar to the Church, but the Church will be changed, raised incorruptible, 1Cor 15:52-53 and will be able to receive everything in Mt Sion in Heaven when we're Caught Up! This leads us to.......

The Apostle John in Rev 4:1 as a TYPE of the Church being Translated or Raptured to heaven after he hears a TRUMPET that says to, COME UP HITHER, see also Rev 1:10. John was then immediately in the Spirit before the Throne and most Evangelicals would say that this is a picture or type of the Rapture of the Church, but there is even more in chapter 4 of Revelation that points to a Pre Trib Rapture. In verse 4, The 24 Elders are now in Heaven also! WHO ARE THEY? They are the Old Testament Saints representing the Twelve Tribes of Israel along with the 12 Apostles! Notice they are in HEAVEN before the Throne! see (Rev 21:2-4) so this is a clear picture of the Rapture, or First Resurrection. In verse 5 it also shows the seven Spirits of God before the Throne! In Vine's Bible Dictionary it points out that seven spirits of God is a term to show the completeness and perfectness of. This is an indication that indeed the Holy Spirit's work is completed on the earth for the (Church age) and (Now) he is seen in Heaven before the Throne! So, John hears the TRUMPET and has been CAUGHT UP to Heaven and he sees the 24 Elders in Heaven and the Holy Spirit is now in Heaven. This gives clear evidence for a Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church! Mid Trib or Post Trib views of the Rapture won't fit here at all.

If John is a type of Church being Raptured, then what he sees is what we the Church will witness during the rest of the book of Revelations! John referred to himself as the disciple that Jesus loved at least 3 times in the Gospel of John. If what we are seeing here is really a love story of GOOD things to come, then it certainly fits that John representing a TYPE of the Church in Rev 4:1 is truly the Beloved! It shows Jesus love for his Bride in (John the Beloved). This only fits with the Rapture of the Church at the start of the Tribulation! The Holy Spirit had John point out the Love that the Lord had for, John the Beloved for a distinct reason, to show that we (his Bride) will be removed from the earth at the start of Rev 4! If John is a TYPE of the Church it is noteworthy also that he was the only Apostle that WAS NOT martyred! Why is that important, because there are those people who assume that the Church will be martyred during the Tribulation. If John is a type of the Church (beloved) then the Church will not be martyred. These are all Biblical Types that reveal a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church and in John the Beloved's case an actual picture of the Church and Old Testament Saints along with the Holy Spirit now in Heaven and all this has happened by Revelation 4:1-5! Like the Angel said to Lot, “hurry, escape there, for I can not do anything until you arrive there...” The Angel could not let the Judgment start until lot was safely removed from Sodom and Gomorrah. The time of Judgment and Tribulation on the earth cannot start until the Church is Raptured out of this world. This is because, it will be a time of purging out the sinners of Israel and Judgment on the World to bring in the Millennial Kingdom. This is when we see the Lamb in chapter 5 take the Book out of the hand of the father because all Judgment has been given to the Son. At this point Jesus is no longer sitting on the Throne of Grace and Judgment is about to begin. For God has not appointed us to wrath. 1Thess 5:9 http://gospeltruthproclaimed.blogspot.com/2013/11/enoch-and-eliah-where-are-they-now.htm

Thursday 8 August 2013

We Declare War Kurt Carr

The Value of Children

 
 
Please note I did not write this article but he covers many interesting points that need to be looked at in this present world victor.s
 
The Value of Children :
The Blessings of a Full Quiver
By David Crank
Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate. Ps 127:3-5 (NAS)
The unbelievers around us do not place a high value on children. This is well evidenced by the high abortion rate and the number of couples who either want no children or only one or two. There also seems to be a widespread mindset that regards children as a bother, as an expense, and as an obstacle that hinders their parents' success and enjoyment of life.
Now most people probably do want children, but many only in small doses. One or two is enough and they want others to take care of them, entertain them and take responsibility for them. Many people just don't want the responsibility of children! Some parents seem to only want to be grandparents. They want to enjoy the children occasionally but give them back to someone else to handle most of the care, education and deal with any problems.
But God has a different view - He calls children "blessings"! The Bible describes children as gifts from God and as rewards! Though He may choose to bless us in many different ways, one of the most prominent ones in the Scriptures is by blessing us with a large family. How many people today associate “large family” with “blessings”? Probably not many! How unreceptive many are to God's blessings! Now don't think that all of this comes just from the few verses at the first of this article. There are many passages associating children, and even many children, with God's blessing (See some following this article). There are also many scriptures where parents refer to their children as gifts from God or where God is credited with having given a particular child as a special gift and blessing. Even from the creation of Adam and Eve we find God blessing mankind with the words, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it."
HOW DO CHRISTIANS TODAY REGARD CHILDREN?
I am ashamed to say that many Christians seem to have adopted some of the world's view concerning children. Truly this world does press in on us and try to conform us to itself. And we do sometimes conform without even realizing that is what we are doing! Rather than seeing children as primarily burdens and financial obligations, we should see them as God sees them. We need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds through the word of God (Romans 12:2).
Admittedly, children are a huge responsibility and require a great deal of self-sacrifice on the part of their parents. So in this sense, there is a burden involved. But the Bible portrays the blessing of children to be so much greater than the burden of their care and upbringing. Though we know God’s Word is true when it tells us children are blessings, yet it is sometimes hard to truly view each and every child as God's blessing at all times. We can easily rationalize that that too much of a good thing can be bad and that children are only a blessing in moderation. “Moderation” we may define as only coming after we have been married a few years and then always two to three years apart, and then stopping after three or four or maybe five children. But of course that is not exactly what God's Word says or even implies. The Bible regards persons having eight or ten or even twelve children as being exceptionally blessed by God. Few people would regard twelve children as children in moderation!
But a big family can be scary even to Christians today. Most adults today grew up in fairly small families. I was an only child, most of my friends were from families with only two or three children. With no experience or good role models for how to raise a truly large family, it can be frightening! How could we ever manage? How could we support so many children? How could we have time for them all and do a good job of raising them? How could we hold up physically and mentally to the challenge?
I have had a hobby from time to time of researching our ancestors. And do you know what? A lot of everyday folks in the 1700s and 1800s had very large families by today's standards. I find lots of families with seven to ten children and some with even twelve or thirteen. Now admittedly times are very different, but it is still encouraging to note that these folks managed and many did a fine job as parents and had wonderful loving families. Could it be that we are frightened for no good reason? Perhaps we are frightened because we are seeing things through the eyes of our unbelieving, materialistic and selfish culture rather than through God's eyes. Perhaps it is due to a lack of faith, or lack of encouragement from other Christians, or lack of instruction and shared wisdom about how to wisely raise a large family.
HOW ARE THEY BLESSINGS?
It seems clear that God declares all children to be blessings from Him to us. We can take this by faith, but it may be helpful to contemplate just how children bless us. Following are few of the ways children often are, or should be, blessings to their parents.
1. Enjoyment and entertainment. When they are small, they are so cute, so fun to play with, so gratifying to watch as they grow and learn. They can provide endless hours of enjoyment if we are willing to take the time.
2. Teaching us love, self-sacrifice, discipline, self-control, gentleness, and patience. God can use children so effectively to mature us and help us to develop godly character. What better classroom does God have to teach these things than a home with children to be raised?
3. The blessing of the love and trust of a child. The love and trust of a small child is so precious and can have such an effect in softening and keeping our hearts softened.
4. Assistance with our work. Children properly taught can be a big help around the household as young as 6 or 7 years of age. And as they get older, their abilities multiply, making their help even more valuable. Older children can handle nearly all household tasks, can be a big help in caring for younger siblings and even homeschooling them, can help with animals, a garden, with a family business, even with building a house! Teaching your children to work alongside you aids greatly in their instruction and discipleship. Children should have the opportunity to become contributing members of the household, both for their sakes and yours.
5. Assistance in later life. When we are old and less capable of doing for ourselves, our children (and grandchildren) can and should be a huge help in a great many ways (just as we should also be to our parents and grandparents). Sometimes just having a grown child who sometimes visits or calls or writes makes all the difference in the life of an elderly person. When one becomes old and feeble, ones children, grandchildren and great grand children may become the primary reason for continuing to live.
6. Enlarging our impact on this world. Even as God associated being fruitful with the ability to subdue and rule over the earth (Gen 1:28), so our children, grandchildren, and later descendents extend our reach far beyond what we in ourselves could accomplish. With each child we have the priceless opportunity to teach and train that child for about 20 years. And even afterwards we can continue to influence and instruct and assist our children in some things through the rest of our lives. Even one child well raised can have a mighty impact for God. Who can estimate the possible impact of 10 or 12 children well raised for the Lord? This is probably some of what is alluded to in Psalm 127:5, "They shall not be ashamed, when they speak with their enemies in the gate." In other words, parents with many dutiful children tend to do well in confrontations with enemies. A man with many children can be (and ought to be) a man of considerable influence and might with both his community and his church. Why? Because when they are grown, he has the love and support and assistance of a significant number of other family members. As his children's families grow, so does his potential influence. This was well understood by people in earlier times (and is by people in many other cultures). Even in some of the old TV shows from the 1950s and 1960s, the value of family assisting each other was extolled (i.e. "Bonanza" in which the three Cartwright brothers were always assisting each other and their father out of difficult or dangerous situations). The more loyal children parents had, the more their power and influence.
ARE ALL CHILDREN, WHENEVER BORN, BLESSINGS?
Is every child born really a blessing? Is there a time when a child is not truly a blessing? Well the Scripture seems to make no qualification - children are a blessing from God period. But though God intends children to be blessings, the parents may not receive the child as such and may raise the child in a way that prevents the child from being much of a blessing to them or anyone else. It is the parents choice whether to accept the child as the blessing God intended or to regard the child as an unwanted burden.
Is God's timing ever truly wrong? The timing of a given child may seem hard to us or just awfully inconvenient. There might be serious situations that make us think it is an unwise time to bring a child into the world. Perhaps there are huge marital difficulties, perhaps very serious health problems, perhaps a family financial crisis, perhaps mental illness or addiction, or perhaps a war and great suffering and hardship. But even so, there are so numerous examples of how a child has been a tremendous blessing in spite of each of these circumstances. Sometimes the child can be a significant tool in God's hands in resolving marital problems. At other times, a child can become the very joy and blessing of its parents in the midst of otherwise very hard and difficult times. Which of us is wise enough to know what the future holds and to judge when is a truly good or bad time in which to have a child?
Without knowing all that a child's future holds, how can we judge the best time for a child to be born? And even if we think we can, there are problems! We may try to have a child, but there is no telling when or if a child will be conceived. And at the time of conception, we don't truly know what tomorrow holds (James 4:11) - in nine months things may be terribly different! God raised up Esther to be royalty at just the time needed to save the people of Israel from destruction at the hands of Haman. Being born into captivity and being orphaned does not seem ideal to us, but it was God’s perfect timing for the sake of all of His people! Who can say how much depends on, or how many other lives will be touched by a single child and how great the loss to us all will be if that child is not born in God's time?
JUST HOW VALUABLE IS A CHILD?
So just how valuable is a child? How can one place a specific value on another living soul born into a family? Is a child worth $100,000? $1,000,000? $10,000,000? It is impossible to accurately value a child by money! The question is whether we value children properly, as God does. Would we willingly suffer financial hardship to give life to another child? Would we even risk our lives for the sake of a baby? Moses’ parents risked theirs!
Does a child's value decrease with being the 4th or the 8th or the 14th child? Numerous examples can be given of the greatest blessing being received from a child who was born after the birth of many other siblings. Consider Joseph, the 12th child (11th son) of Jacob. Consider David, the 8th son of Jesse. Consider John and Charles Wesley (the 15th and 18th children of their parents). Indeed we have no way of knowing just how great a blessing each child will develop into. Will it be the 1st or the 4th or the 10th child that will really be there for us in our hour of need? In the fictional story of "Little Lord Fauntleroy", a rich and powerful Earl loses all three sons to death in early manhood, but finds a single grandson, born to his youngest, who changes the bitter grandfather's heart and becomes such a blessing to all the people around. Only God knows the future that lies before each of our children and the blessing they may become to us and to many others.
BUT IS IT SOMETIMES IRRESPONSIBLE TO HAVE A CHILD?
But some may ask, "But isn't it a sin to bring children into the world when you cannot provide adequately for them"? ("But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his own household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever" 1 Tim 5:8 (NAS) )
Take a closer look at this verse in its context and think about it a little. The context is in reference to providing for your widowed mother or perhaps a widowed aunt. It is talking about being selfish and not sharing what you have with your own relatives, leaving them to be supported and cared for by the church when you are well able to do so! It is not addressing how well you are able to provide for those of your family, nor is it condeming the poor man who is struggling to meet the needs of his family. The rebuke is directed at the selfish , the greedy and those who will not work and take responsibility for their own family members. Whatever our means, we are to share with those of our own family who are in need, doing our best to provide for them.
This verse does not even hint at reducing or limiting the number of members of your household so that there will be a greater abundance! I find no place in Scripture where husbands and wives are ever encouraged to prevent conception. Consider, is it ever a sin to accept God's blessings? Or is it ever virtue to reject His blessings?
Do we really think that God will give us a child and not provide us with the essentials with which to raise up this child? Does not God promise to provide for our basic needs, food and covering (Matt 6:25-34)? We are expected by God to work for our bread, but it is He who enables us to work and provides a return to us for our labor. And we are assured by the Bible that He cares for us and knows exactly what we truly need!
Paul admonishes us to be content with food and covering (1 Tim 6:6-8). Does our contentment require houses and land and furniture and electronics and so on? Have we failed to provide for our children and sinned if we are unable to pay $20,000 per year per child for a college education? Or if we are unable to buy each child a car and provide them with the latest name brand clothes, etc.? When we fear not being able to provide materially for another child, is this not the same as being anxious for what we shall eat and drink and wear? Is this not just our fear to trust God to provide for us?
Consider the following:
1. Is it really irresponsible to allow God to bless you? Has God anywhere commanded you to take responsibility for planning the number and timing of your children? Has God anywhere criticized someone for having too many children or not spacing them well?
2. How do you know how many children you can provide well for? Can you see into the future? Have you already learned all that God would have you learn about frugality and using your resources wisely? There are plenty of examples of very large Christian families who seem to do well on very modest incomes. There are also plenty of testimonies concerning God's faithfulness to increase or supplement income as one's family grows.
3. Will God give you more children than you are able to raise well? Will He entrust His blessings to us knowing our inability to care for them adequately? If He does, it is surely part of His plan and He will use it for our benefit (Rom 8:28).
4. How many children can you raise well? How do you know? Even if you feel you are failing as a father or mother, God may still have a special purpose for that additional child. God is not limited by your shortcomings in using that child mightily for His purposes!
Be careful what you call irresponsible - when is trusting God ever irresponsible? Who can be better trusted? Who else loves us so, has the wisdom and ability to see what the future holds and really knows what is best? Or who else has the limitless resources and might with which to provide for us and protect us through every hardship or trial we may encounter in life?
Now there are scriptures indicating that there are times and situations in which it may be best not to marry. But once you are married, multiplying is part of the program - if God so blesses you! And in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 Paul instructs husbands and wives not to abstain from marital relations (perhaps the only practical and reliable birth control available to most people at that time). Marriage is supposed to produce children, even in accord with God's command twice given in Genesis to be fruitful and multiply. God never withdrew this command or indicated any advantage or wisdom in trying to prevent our bodies from functioning as He designed.
And neither is modern birth control similar to using modern medicine to treat illnesses. It is one thing to medically treat your body when it is ill, or to surgically remove a part which is misfunctioning and harming the whole body. It is quite another to surgically alter your correctly functioning body or take medications to tamper with correct hormonal balances in order to prevent conception.
HOW MUCH MIGHT GOD BLESS US IF WE LET HIM? HOW BIG IS THE QUIVER?
Does this article scare you to death? It was a topic I was once very fearful about. If you grew up in a family of only 1-3 children (like I did) and nearly everyone you know came from similar families, it is hard to envision a much larger family and how you would cope. You may wonder, if you did trust God for your family size, how many children would He give you? I don’t know, but consider this:
1. Does it really matter? Trust God to decide! You don't need to fear - but you may need to adjust your expectations concerning what is "normal" and what constitutes an "average" verses a "large" family.
2. We can draw inferences from others who have taken this path. We can look at the rare people around us who have followed this pattern for many years. (The few I know had the following number over 20-25 years:1, 4, 5, 12, 14). We can look back in records of earlier times, when birth control methods were few and viewed by most good Christians as sinful. From studying our family’s ancestors, I find an average of about 7-8 children per family during the 1700s and 1800s. I've found a few families of 12 or 13 children, many more with 8-10 children, and a significant number with only 4-6. But it was pretty rare to find a husband and wife living to 50 years of age with only 1 or 2 children. And in the several hundred families I studied, 13 was the largest number of children.
I just recently read of President Theodore Roosevelt’s complaints about the falling American birth rate: from 1800 to 1900 the average birth rate of white women had dropped from seven children to 3.56 children. The birth rate for women in 1800 was probably minimally affected by birth control. The most remarkable record of many children I have come across is that of Susanna Wesley and her mother. Susanna was the 25th and last child of her mother and she herself had 19 children (at least 2 sets of twins among these). But only 10 of her children lived and some number of her mother’s children died early also. Yet God remarkably gifted these women to be good mothers for all their children!
We can also look at records in the Bible of people's families. Abraham & Sarah (1); Isaac & Rebekah (2); Jacob (13 - but with 4 wives); Moses (2); Jesse (8 sons); etc. There are others that are pointed out in the Bible as blessed with unusually large families or unusually large numbers of sons. In 1 Chronicles 26:4-5 we are told that Obed-edom had eight sons, with the comment that God had indeed blessed him. Similarly we see Job being very blessed with seven sons and three daughters. These are among the larger families mentioned in the Scriptures, other than those where many wives were involved. And these are people who appear to have wanted just as many children as possible! This all shows that God causes a lot of variety in terms of how many children each couple has. His plan for you may be very different from the next person.
3. We can consider what seems likely given the way God has made our bodies. (Assuming God neither withheld children nor did anything but let our bodies function in accord with His design). In theory, a woman could have about one child a year for her entire child bearing years. Assuming marriage at about age 20, a woman might be able to have children for about 30-35 years. Practicality is a bit different though, as a woman's fertility tends to decline in the last 10 years. In fact ovulation often completely ceases years before the menstrual cycles cease.
But you just don't find women now or in the historical past with anything approaching thirty to thirty five children, even when marriages as early as age 16 were common (except perhaps a few remarkable women who had multiple sets of twins or triplets, etc.). Besides the fact of near infertility for 5 or more years prior to menopause, having children as close together as one year for an extended period is somewhat unusual. When women nurse their babies fully there is usually at least a year and a half, if not two years minimum between babies. And as a woman ages there seems to be a pattern of children being spaced out more without any effort on the couples' part. The 1-2 year gap becomes 4 and then 6, etc. A number of around 12-14 children tends to be the practical limit for all but the most unusual women. (Of course you could be the next Susanna Wesley!)
CONCLUSION
All children are given by God to be blessings to their parents (even to the ungodly). A “quiver full” of children is a great blessing, but is not part of God’s plan for everyone. Some people very favored by God will not be blessed with children at all or will be blessed with very few (i.e. Abraham with Sarah; Isaac & Rebekah; Zachariah & Elizabeth). But whether or not God chooses to bless us in this way, we should learn to value children as He does and welcome each and every one.
We should not fear having a large family and we should view a large family (8, 10, 12, 14 children) as very good and desirable! And we should trust God, that if He so blesses, He will continue to provide for us all that we truly need, including the need for the means, strength and ability to raise a large family well!
 

Wednesday 7 August 2013

Discussion on Deuteronomy 22:5



       

History and Deuteronomy 22:5 (part two)

Deuteronomy 22:5 isn't hard to understand.

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Even if someone were to rely on modern translations (which are made from the same Hebrew text in this instance)hewould come to the same conclusion about what it says:

NASV A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

NIV A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

We see nothing in the verse about Canaanite worship or women in the military or transvestism. It is about as straightforward as it can get.

Even further, and this is important, the verse doesn't say, "women, don't look like men," "men, don't look like women," or "you've got to be able to tell the difference between men and women." Those are only means by which someone can ignore the verse. It also doesn't say, "This issue is a joke!" Which is the most common argument that I hear. Or another version of the same argument, "This is so stupid!" Given by outstanding Bible scholars.

In almost every case, I've found in a debate or discussion over Deuteronomy 22:5 that those who do not want to obey it will start with arguing about what it means. Once they find out that they can't get any traction there, then they argue about the application. When someone has been unbiased and without predisposition in studying a passage, he won't discuss or debate this way. He starts from scratch with the desire to understand the meaning and the application, not explain it away.

I've dealt with the interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5. Now I will show you that women in dresses and skirts and men in pants is how that it has been practiced. I'm just the messenger. I think men and women are equal. They have differing roles. The differing roles are seen in their distinct design. Men and women are different. God wants those differences reflected in designed distinctions in their clothing. Western civilization and particularly the United States practiced these designed distinctions. They still have never been replaced with other designed distinctions. This is reflected in the comment of experts in the history of fashion.

Kidwell, Claudia Bush Kidwell and Valerie Steele write in Men and Women: Dressing the Part (pp. 2-14):

In analyzing gender identities, we use the term gender conventions to refer to the social and cultural expectations of behavior, clothing, and images that have divided men and women into separate spheres. . . . [T]he existence of these behavioral standards has always been an integral part of our social structure. . . . When we examine how clothes define an individual, we must also set the man or woman within the context of their (sic) place and time. . . . The full impact of these gender conventions on fashion is only revealed when the two sexes in fashion history are examined side by side. It then becomes obvious that historically clothing has served to separate men and women. . . . Consider the image of a woman dressed in pants. It is a clothing symbol laden with gender meaning. . . . The most obvious division in clothing today is between trousers and skirts. . . . In Europe, over the centuries, flowing robes became associated with femininity and tailored trousers with masculinity. . . . Women in Europe did not wear trousers because the garment had acquired such strong masculine connotations.

Allison Lurie in The Language of Clothes (p. 224) writes:

Real trousers took much longer to become standard female wear. It was not until the 1920s that women and girls began to wear slacks and even shorts for sports and lounging. The new style was greeted with disapproval and ridicule. Women were told that they looked very ugly in trousers, and that wanting to wear The Pants in our culture, for centuries, the symbolic badge of male authority, was unnatural and sexually unattractive. . . . This freedom, however was limited to the private and informal side of life. Wearing slacks to the office or to the party was out of the question, and any female who appeared on a formal occasion in a trouser suit was assumed to be a bohemian eccentric and probably a lesbian. . . . At Frick Collection library in New York (in the 1960s) women [were] not admitted unless they [were] wearing skirts; a particularly ancient and unattractive skirt [was] kept at the desk for the use of readers ignorant of this rule.

Ann Hollander in Sex and Suits: The Evolution of Modern Dress (p. 53) writes:

Trousers for respectable women were publicly unacceptable except for fancy dress and on the stage, and they were not generally worn even invisibly as underwear until well on in the nineteenth century. At that period the common adoption of underpants by women seems to represent the first expression of the collective secret desire to wear pants, only acceptably brought out on the surface with the bicycling costumes of the 1890's, and only finally confirmed in the twentieth century with the gradual adoption of pants as normal public garments for women. . . . Pants were still a forbidden borrowing from the male, so unseemly that they could only be generally hidden until their time finally came.

The movement away from gender distinct dress has been termed the "unisex movement." This movement was a purposeful erasing or blending of the delineating lines between male and female appearance. An article in the 1970 Compton Encyclopedia Yearbook states, "Paris couturer Jacques Esterel states that identification of the sexes in terms of clothes will become a thing of the past. He designed an identical tunic and pants outfit for father, mother, and child . . . unisex clothes." In Life magazine, January 9, 1970, Rudi Gernreich writes, "When proposing his vision of the future of fashion in 1970, he predicted that the traditional apparel symbols of masculinity and femininity would become obsolete, . . . women will wear pants and men will wear skirts interchangeably. The pant-skirt controversy is a male-female role controversy." Kidwell and Steele write (p. 144):

Controversial fashion changes such as women adopting trousers can only take place after women's roles in society have altered. The mass acceptance of a style may accompany a change in public opinion, but does not precede it. Dress reformers were correct in seeing the connection between women's roles and their clothing, but erred in believing that by changing the costume, changes in gender conventions would automatically follow.

Our country practiced the pants as male dress and the dress or skirt as the female dress. Those were the designed distinctions. None other served as the distinction between the genders. They were erased by the culture because the culture didn't care to keep those distinctions any longer, despite what God had said. They were replaced by nothing.

23 comments:

Jude said...
Rev. Brandenburg,

Forgive me if I've missed other posts by you dealing with this, but I was of the understanding that the law no longer applies to Christians. That it kept us, being a tutor, for grace. How is this passage still applicable as a cultural mandate?

Cultural understandings and boundaries shift. A skirt in the United States is associated with femininity while in Scotland is proudly worn as a symbol of masculinity. At what point does clothing that was once considered appropriate for one gender become appropriate for another?

Thanks.
Kent Brandenburg said...
Thanks Jude for your comment.

First, regarding the law, I've written on this over at Jackhammer on a couple of occasions. I write there usually once a week. However, Jesus said that He didn't come to destroy the law. Based on 2 Cor 3, I believe that we see, as someone else has put it, that "the mechanism for progressive sanctification is not to be found in legal commandments. It is found in the Spirit." The law is good if used lawfully and sin is the transgression of the law. Those are both NT.

Related to the application. No offense, but I did answer your last question in this post. The designed distinction must be replaced by another. That hasn't happened. There's a reason, our culture doesn't care. It actually wants the designed distinction erased, thinking that egalitarianism is superior. We're not supposed to be cooperating with that as Christians or churches.

Jude,

What is the distinct male article in our culture? When I say "the," I'm talking about at least one that has been worn continuously and publically. I think there is only one that had been that article. History agrees with that assessment. However, if pants are not it, then what would that male article be today? I'll await your answer.
Anonymous said...
So would you consider a kilt
permissble in scottish culture? Here is a site that actually considers the notion that men wear only pants as oppression they even have links to other sites: zyra.orguk: skirts for men. To be entirely consistant one would probably have to accept men's skirts along with womans's pants.BTW I don't know that i understand the Ann Hollander about
underpants. Does she mean the advent of woman's underwear like women have today or something different?
Jude said...
Rev. Brandenburg,

Thank you for the quick and courteous response.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but how do we choose which of the laws from the Torah to still follow? Why should I assume that this law (unless otherwise dealt with in scripture) still applies?

While I'm not sure I agree with your premise (that Deuteronomy 22:5 still applies to us) I don't think that verse asserts that each culture will have one or more article of clothing that will absolutely always be gender specific. It appears that it's saying that if there is gender specific clothing that it is not to be mixed. So for our culture I think undergarments or clothes specifically designed for one gender (e.g. skirts, womens' suit pants) would be a good example of that. While, as you quoted, the feminization of pants was done partly to equalize the genders (or remove gender distinctions) that was a different culture than the one we operate in today. By the mid-60's it was perfectly acceptable culturally. Our culture no longer even thinks about it. And while we certainly don't take our moral cues from culture, for something that is culture specific this is the key component.

Respectfully,

-Jude
Kent Brandenburg said...
Jude,

You're asking essentially, how do we use the law lawfully to put it within that particular phrase that we see, I believe, in 1 Timothy. Paul relied on the law regularly and one specific example which comes to mind is in the middle of 1 Cor 9 when he quotes a verse from Deuteronomy and applies it to the right for a minister to be paid. He quoted it again in 1 Timothy 5, "Muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the corn."

Obvious in Deut 22:5 is the morality of it as seen in the person violating the prohibition becoming an abomination to God. This is not a judicial or ceremonial law. It is not a picture fulfilled in the reality of Jesus nor is it a law that was strictly applied to the nation Israel. When you have the phrase in the OT, "all who do so," it applies to everybody, Jew and Gentile. This connects it with created order.

God still expects the designed distinction even if the culture purposefully erases it. And the truth is, pant-skirt has actually not been replaced. Still today our culture understands that the skirt/dress is female and pants are male, as seen in the pictures on the bathroom doors. Now the culture may violate that standard repeatedly as we might expect, Christians are not to do that, or we are living just like the world. And there should be no contention from the churches on such a designed distinction (1 Cor 11:16). Why would there be a contention? Which there regularly is when this subject is brought up. It is a controversial subject due to the meaning packed into the symbols in the designed distinctions. They are more than about "telling the difference," but supporting God's design, which happens to put men in authority.

One of the temptations for Christians since Christianity began was to accommodate and accede to the world, so as not to feel the reproach that comes with obedience to God's Word. The world loves darkness because its deeds are evil, so marvel not if it hates you.
Kent Brandenburg said...
Anonymous,
I'm sorry I didn't get to your question. I've only seen one place in the United States where the male skirt is marketed and that is at the gay pride parade in SF. Most would associate men wearing skirts with sodomites. Regarding the kilt in Scotland---it is a distinctly male dress---it is a historic short article of clothing that hearkens back to centuries before pants were even worn. If I wore a plaid skirt, however, in this culture, it would not be the same.
Kelly said...
Dear Pastor,

If I'm reading your post correctly, are you saying women should only wear skirts, and men wear pants?

If so, does this mean we should not be eating pigs (Deut. 14:8), wear mixed linens (Deut. 22:11), or eat unclean meat (Lev. 11:1-10)?

I'm just trying to understand how some scriptures apply today, and others do not and I appreciate you taking the time to write.

With warmest regards,

Kelly
Kent Brandenburg said...
Hi Kelly,

Thanks for your question. We see all over the NT that we are to obey the OT law. Certain laws, yes, have been dropped based on God's revelation.

However, we have plenty of basis to believe that we are to obey the law. We can't be saved by keeping it, but if we are save then keeping it will be the tendency of our new nature. 1 John says that sin is the transgression of the law. Paul wrote in 1 Timothy that the law is good if used lawfully. In 1 Cor 9, Paul used the law to justify pay for Christian servants. He quoted the text in Deuteronomy about not muzzling the ox that treads out the corn.

Regarding Deuteronomy 22:5, it isn't a command for just the nature Israel. It is for everyone. The verse says, "all who do so." And then someone who violates the prohibition is an abomination to God. That means it is a moral law. And finally we have a repeat of this standard in 1 Corinthians 11 with God's support of the cultural distinction of female head coverings.
Joshua said...
http://www.claudemariottini.com/blog/2009/08/women-pants-and-deuteronomy-225-part-1.html#links

Thought this might be of interest. Was trying to find more of the other side of the pants debate and came across this. Apparently Dr. Mariottini disagrees with you on the matter of pants, and is attempting to answer your posts here and at Jackhammer.
Kent Brandenburg said...
His answer, tell me if I'm wrong, Joshua: I said, Moses told women not to wear pants. There we go. And so he finds pictographs of Egyptians without pants. Argument over. I'm left wagging my head. I don't foresee a profitable conversation.

You represented my arguments perfectly and succinctly. It's nice to hear someone actually read what I wrote.
Gary said...
Ok, I know that I said that out of respect for you and your site that I would stop commenting on this subject (because I think that I was annoying you), but I need some clarification on your June 8th post.

Joshua mentioned on Dr. Mariotinni's site that you do not hold the position that their was an authority issue in Deuteronomy 22:5. When I read over the comments section of your June 8th post it seemed pretty clear to me that you were not only using 1 Cor. 11 to show the "sin" of today's women, but also hinting that authority was one of the reasons behind the need for the law in Deuteronomy.

If I misread your comments then please clairify.

I'm not trying to annoy you, so when you answer I won't respond unless I'm asked a question. God bless.
Joshua said...
Your foresight is remarkable. His second post then went on to lay out a "the Law was evolved over time, so we know that Deut 22:5 must have been a product of growing Levitical hostility to other religious practises" argument.

Both posts were refuted in short order, so he deleted all the comments and locked both. Now they're having a scoff at some guy on Youtube for "teaching crazy stuff". I think that pretty much speaks for itself.
Kent Brandenburg said...
Gary,

As you attach yourself to Claude Mariottini, understand that he has a liberal approach to scripture. That kind of historico-rationalistic approach is post-enlightenment humanism mixed with the Bible.

Authority isn't in Deut. 22:5, but 1 Cor 11 shows that the distinctions in dress relate to role. God designed a different role for the two genders and that is shown by the distinctions in their dress. That is clear in 1 Cor 11.

Wearing the male garment makes a woman an abomination to God. Why? He designed women distinct and He wants women to reflect His perfect design. It is a kind of rebellion against God that is akin to other abomination.

You see this fleshed out in history in that the early feminist movement crusaded for a change in dress distinctions.

Joshua,

He makes the commandments of God of no effect. I appreciate your encouragement.
Kent Brandenburg said...
Gary,

One more thing. Notice that Mariottini admits that the commentators I quoted take the same position as I. His argument against is that they didn't have the archeology to come to the right position. How does that square with Holy Spirit illumination and no private interpretation? Also the sufficiency of scripture? Scripture without archaeology equals the wrong interpretation?
Mjones said...
What I want to know is- if i have a relationship with Christ, asked forgiveness of my sins, daily relate to Him in prayer and reading his Word, witness to others, pray for others, teach sunday school, proclaim Him as my Saviour first...am i still going to hell for wearing pants?
Joshua said...
The Bible plainly teaches that those who are truly born again will evidence their salvation and will continue on with the Lord (John 10:27-28; 1 Cor. 15:1,2; Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 6:4-9; 10:38; 1 John 3:3). The one who permanently falls away demonstrates that he did not belong to the Lord in the first place (Heb. 12:5-8). If a professing Christian murders someone, it probably proves that he was not genuinely saved. Revelation 21:8 is similar to 1 John 3:9. These passages are not talking about an act of sin but a way of life of sin. If these passages are referring to an act of sin, no one can be saved. It is obvious from other passages that a Christian can commit any act of sin, including idolatry and adultery (1 John 1:8-10). This is why we are often warned not to commit these evils (1 Cor. 6:18; 10:6,14; 1 John 5:21). Salvation is to be placed into an entirely and eternally new position in Jesus Christ. The old flesh cannot be redeemed; it can only be condemned and crucified. Our new position in Christ is that our old man is dead and we rise to new life in Jesus Christ. The law can no longer condemn us. Please study Romans 1-8 very carefully, for it holds the key to understanding salvation properly, as well as the proper place of sin and the law in the Christian’s life. Salvation requires perfection, and the only perfection that we can ever have is that which we receive from Jesus Christ because of the Propitiation He purchased on Calvary. Even one sin will keep me out of Heaven, but, praise God, I do not have any sin in Christ. He has taken it all away forever.
Johnathan said...
According to your answer to Kelly you said: Thanks for your question. We see all over the NT that we are to obey the OT law. Certain laws, yes, have been dropped based on God's revelation.

According to Matthew 5:18 (King James Version)
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I interpret that as no laws have been dropped. Can you explain why some laws are dropped?
Thank you
Denise said...
I think the issue with the stance that you have taken is that you move from a biblical command spoken by God, to interpreting it through the lens of secular, cultural fashion trends and your understanding of the meaning of those trends. And that's where the analysis loses its power. Even if when one accepts Deuteronomy 22:5 as a command that we are to obey today, I think you have more work to do in showing that pants designed for women are garments that pertain to a man. I don't simply mean pants in the general sense, but specifically women's pants...which are generally distinguishable from men's pants (sometimes not, but capris for instance, are solely for women).

What pertains to men and what pertains to women in terms of clothing is understood culturally, and such understandings (like the passages you quote show) evolve over time. Clearly in Scripture, both men and women wore tunics, yet a man wearing a tunic today would be seen as either wearing a dress of some sort, or at the least dressing oddly.

It seems like you're trying to say that because men only wear pants--short or long (whereas women wear dresses as well), culturally pants belong to men. That's an arbitrary imposition of meaning. Since the gender connotations of clothing are culturally determined, society's general perception of pants on women will be the main determinant of whether or not they pertain solely to men, or to both men and women--like tunics did in the Bible. Today's society, regardless of what it thought in times past, does not believe that pants are solely for men, just like in biblical times, tunics were not solely for one gender or the other. They were for both. Since we have a clear biblical example of a basic type of garment that both genders wore without offending God, it stands to reason that there could be basic types of garments today that both genders wear that does not offend God.

I think that you are overcomplicating the text in that you are making it to say, "Women should not wear pants," when it says nothing of the sort. You are relying on your understanding of pants rather than on the text to validate your position. The verse says that men and women should not wear that which pertains to the other gender, and we already have distinctions in our culture between men and women's clothing--whether pants, shorts, dresses, capris, skirts, skorts, etc. I don't think that people disagree with keeping Deuteronomy 22:5 (as obviously most Christians are against cross-dressing) as much as they disagree with your understanding of the nature of pants.
Kent Brandenburg said...
Hi Denise,

Thanks for coming over. I think it's interesting that you say I'm over complicating it. Here's a question that I often ask people to help with this issue. You say that most Christians are against cross dressing---I think that was true at one time, but not today. What is the male garment that distinguishes the man as male and in contrast to the woman, agreeing with God's designed distinction between man and woman?

When Christians were against cross-dressing, the male article was pants. Men "girded up their loins as a man," like God told Job. With the removal of pants, there is no male garment.

When women started wearing pants, all Christians were opposed. Men no longer had a garment that was distinctly male. There was a point to women wearing pants. There has never been any kind of cultural distinction between men's pants and women's pants. There was no definitive design point to differentiate women's pants as women's. The point of women's pants was to eliminate the designed distinction.

I haven't noticed any kind of stand taken by any modern Christian against women wearing "men's pants." I've never read an article taking a stand on "women's pants." They just don't care. I'd be interested to find out if you care if these women, who wear "men's pants" are an abomination to God. That's a strong statement of prohibition by God, as strong as one sees in Scripture. The reason there isn't anything done on this is because people generally don't actually care. I'd like to see your work against women wearing "men's pants." For instance, what in particular are the designed distinctions, the cultural ones, that our culture has specifically pointed out that show the difference between men's pants and woman's pants? I'll be awaiting those. I'd be glad for you to point out the articles that establish that and that would indicate the time put into making sure those designs are kept.

The point of Deuteronomy 22:5 is designed distinctions, designed differentiation, clear ones, not for the elimination of those.

Thanks.
Denise said...
Kent,

I'm a bit surprised at how strongly you insist that the culture has made no distinction between men's pants and women's pants. I think a quick trip to a department store would show clearly that there are notable differences. Whether by cut, color, choice of fabric, pattern, etc.

Many people noticed when men started wearing "skinny jeans" that they look too much like jeans designed for girls. I don't consider them appropriate for men, even though they are pants...just like I wouldn't consider capris or culottes, bootleg cut or wideleg jeans, etc. appropriate for men, although they too, are types of pants. The fact that there are plenty of pants that a man could put on and be perceived as dressing like a woman shows that there are indeed recognizable distinctions between pants for men and pants for women.

Likewise, women wearing men's pants look like they are doing so. A grade school teacher wore men's suits. Even as a child it was clear that she was a woman wearing a man's suit. I had seen women's pantsuits and never thought they were for men. But this teacher was obviously wearing men's pants and a man's dress jacket.

I happened to stand behind an young man in the grocery store who was dressed like a teenaged girl. But, he was certainly wearing pants--they were just obviously girl jeans. He was also wearing a blazer, but that too, was clearly designed for women. There was no question that he was a transgendered person, and one who would garner a lot of attention as he walked down the street. If a "pant" were simply masculine, period, and never feminine, then there would have been nothing unusual about the way that man was dressed. But there was something unusual and wrong about it--his choice of jeans and jacket clearly showed that he identifies with women's fashions and there was no ambiguity about that fact.

Another man could have easily chosen jeans made for men, the same color blazer (cut appropriately for men) and a t-shirt and looked completely normal and masculine.

If the particular argument you're making stands, and any pants a woman wears are inherently masculine, then a man should be able to pick out any pair of pants from a woman's closet and be seen as wearing men's clothing. Because what is being said is that it doesn't matter whether the pants were designed for women and are clearly recognized as such--it's the form of the garment itself that makes it masculine. But we know that's not the case.

If a woman presents herself in men's clothing, that is an abomination to Him, as is when a man presents himself in women's clothing. It seems that you want what is a man's garment and what is a woman's garment to be determined purely by the outline of the garment. I think the better position to take is to avoid wearing clothes that others would identify as dressing like the opposite sex.

And that distinction is not so culturally blurry as you are making it out to be. If you go into an office building and imagined all the men and women switching clothes, the vast majority of women would look like they were dressed as men, and the vast majority of men would look like they were dressed as women. That's what I meant when I mentioned things being overcomplicated. It seems that to support what you are saying you have to first convince your audience that we are in a state of mass androgyny caused by women wearing pants, no one recognizing cross dressers, etc., and I really don't think that's the case.
Kent Brandenburg said...
Denise,

You didn't answer my questions. I asked simple questions and you gave complex and wandering answers.

We are to obey the text. Deuteronomy 22:5 speaks of the male item and female clothing, an item distinctly for a particular gender. The woman is not to have on the male item and the man is not to wear the woman's garment. I asked you what the male item was, and you say, "looked like." The passage doesn't say "looked like."

The women in Corinth still looked like women with or without a head covering, but that wasn't the point.

Pants were the distinguishing, designed male garment. Women started wearing them. Christians protested, Christians gave in, and the male item wasn't replaced. You are saying, yes, it was replaced by men's pants. That's just not the case. Nothing has replaced pants as the male item. You say cut, color, style of fabric, but none of those has been delineated as male or female. You are saying that, yes, skinny jeans are a female garment, and yet you also say that men wear them. Does that make the men who wear skinny jeans an abomination?

The point of pants on women was to take away the distinction. Do you admit that? Do you admit that the opposition to women wearing pants was in a major way because of the symbolism of male authority? What is now the symbol of authority for men? That is the male item. What is it?
Kent Brandenburg said...
One more thing, Denise. If a daughter took a pair of blue jeans off the "men's rack or shelf" and wore them, loose fitting ones, would she be an abomination to God? Please answer the question.
Joshua said...
Simply put - would you call a woman following this fashion an abomination:

http://www.collegefashion.net/trends/spring-trend-boyfriend-jeans/